On the afternoon of Friday, June 4, 2021 at 7:15 p.m., a new dialogue was held with Bishop Mons. Francisco Conesa, in this case in the Obispo Villa del Obispado Room. Our bishop has explained the functioning of the economy of the Church and, in a special way, that of the diocese of Menorca. He expressed that the Church needs to have material means to fulfill and carry out its evangelizing-pastoral and charitable-social mission. He has emphasized the heritage he found when he arrived in Menorca and how small the diocese is and the long road that must be taken so that the church’s accounts are transparent to the entire Spanish society. As a note, I want to highlight the note that the bishop made about a question that is always asked to the church about the wealth of the Vatican, and the answer that Pope Francis gave in an interview with the Dutch magazine Straatnieuws. collected has been used for the poor. There are things that can be sold and these are sold (…) The real estate assets of the Church are many, but we use them to maintain the structures of the Church and to maintain many works that are done in needy countries: hospitals, schools. Yesterday, for example, I asked to send 50,000 euros to the Congo to build three schools in poor countries; education is an important thing for children. “I went to the competent administration, made this request and the money has been sent.” They are my spontaneous memories. Did you also play soccer? Pope Francis: Yes, was it good? Pope Francis: No. In Buenos Aires those who played soccer like me were called ‘hard legs’. What does it mean to have two left legs? But I played, I was the goalkeeper many times. How did your personal commitment to the poor come about? Pope Francis: Yes, many memories come to mind. I was very surprised by a woman who came home three times a week to help my mother. For example, I helped wash clothes. She had two children. They were Italian, Sicilian, and they lived through the war, they were very poor, but very good. And I have always kept the memory of that woman. His poverty surprised me. We were not rich, we made ends meet normally, but we didn’t have any left over. We didn’t have a car, we didn’t go on vacation and stuff like that. But she was missing many necessary things. We had enough and my mother gave him the things. Afterwards she returned to Italy and then returned to Argentina. I found her when I was Archbishop of Buenos Aires, I was 90 years old. I accompanied her until her death at 93 years old. One day she gave me a medal of the Sacred Heart of Jesus that I still carry with me every day. This medal – which is also a souvenir – does me a lot of good. Do you want to see it? (the Pope shows the medal). That’s how I think about her every day and how much she has suffered from poverty. And I think of all the others who have suffered. I carry it and pray to it… What is the message of the Church for the homeless? What does Christian solidarity mean specifically for them? Pope Francis: Two things come to mind. Jesus has come into the world without a roof and has become poor. So the Church wants to embrace everyone and say that it is a right to have a roof over their heads. In popular movements we work with three Spanish ‘t’s: work, roof and land. The Church preaches that every person has the right to these three ‘t’s. You often ask for attention for the poor and refugees. Aren’t you afraid that in this way a form of exhaustion could be generated in the media and in society in general? Pope Francis: We are all tempted – when it comes to a topic that is not pretty, because it is ugly to talk about – to say: ‘Well, let’s finish: this ‘burns’ too much.’ I feel that exhaustion exists, but I am not afraid of it. I must continue speaking about the truth and how things are. Is it your duty? Pope Francis: Yes, it is my duty. I feel it inside me. It is not a commandment, but as people we all have to do it. Aren’t you afraid that your defense of solidarity and help for the homeless and other poor could be used politically? How should the Church speak to be influential and at the same time remain outside of political approaches? Pope Francis: There are paths that lead to misunderstandings at this point. I would like to highlight two temptations. The Church must speak with the truth and also with testimony: the testimony of poverty. If a believer talks about poverty or homelessness and lives the life of a pharaoh… this cannot be done. This is the first temptation. The other temptation is to sign agreements with governments. Agreements can be made, but they must be clear agreements, transparent agreements. For example: we manage this ‘palace’ (Casa Santa Marta), but the accounts are all controlled, to avoid corruption. Because corruption always exists in public life. Be it political or religious. I remember that once with great pain I saw – when Argentina, under the military regime, went to war with Great Britain over the Malvinas Islands – that people gave things, and I saw how many people, also Catholics, who were in charge of distributing them, took them home. There is always the danger of corruption. I once asked a question to a minister from Argentina, an honest man. One who left the assignment because he couldn’t agree with some things that were a bit dark. I asked him a question: When you send help, be it food, clothing, or money, to the poor or the destitute: of what you send, how much of it gets there, whether in money or expenses? He told me: ’35 percent.’ This means that 65 percent is lost. It is corruption: part for me, part for me. Do you think that so far in your pontificate you have been able to achieve a change of thought, for example in politics? Pope Francis: I wouldn’t know what to say. Don’t know. I know that Someone has said that I am a communist. But it is a somewhat outdated category. Perhaps today other words are used to say this… Marxist, socialist… Pope Francis: They have said all this. The homeless have economic problems, but they cultivate their own freedom. The Pope has no material needs, but is considered by some to be a prisoner in the Vatican. Don’t you ever feel the desire to get into the shoes of a homeless person? Pope Francis: I remember Mark Twain’s book ‘The Prince and the Pauper’. When you can eat every day, you have clothes, you have a bed to sleep in, you have a desk to work on and you don’t lack anything. He also has friends. But this Mark Twain prince lives in a golden cage. Do you feel free here in the Vatican? Pope Francis: Two days after being elected Pope I went, as it is officially said, to take possession of the papal apartment in the Apostolic Palace. It is not a luxurious apartment. But it’s long, it’s big… After having seen this apartment it seemed like an upside down funnel, that is, big but with a small door. This means being isolated. I thought: ‘I can’t live here simply for mental reasons. It would make me bad. At first it seemed like a strange thing, but I asked to stay here, in Santa Marta. And this is good for me because I feel free. Lunch in the dining room where everyone eats. And when I arrive earlier I eat with the employees. I meet people, I greet them and this makes the golden cage less of a cage. But I miss the street. Holy Father, Marc wants to invite you to go have pizza with us. Thinking? Pope Francis: I would like to, but we will not be able to do it. Because the moment I leave here people will come to me. When I went to change the lenses of my glasses in the city it was seven in the afternoon. There are not many people on the street. They took me to the optician and I got out of the car and there was a woman who saw me and shouted: ‘Here is the Pope!’ And then I was inside and all the people were outside… Do you lack contact with people? Pope Francis: I don’t miss it because people come here. Every Wednesday I go to the Plaza for the General Audience, sometimes I go to a parish: I am in contact with the people. For example, yesterday (October 26) more than 50,000 gypsies came to the Paul VI Hall. It seems that you enjoy this tour of the Plaza during the General Audience… Pope Francis: It’s true. Yes it’s true. His namesake Saint Francis chose radical poverty and also sold his gospel. As Pope and Bishop of Rome, do you ever feel under pressure to sell the treasures of the Church? Pope Francis: This is an easy question. They are not the treasures of the Church, but they are the treasures of humanity. For example, if tomorrow I say that Michelangelo’s Pieta be auctioned, it could not be done because it is not property of the Church. It is in a church, but it is of humanity. This goes for all the treasures of the Church. But We have started selling the gifts and other things they give me. And the profits from the sales go to Bishop Krajewski, who is my beggar. And then there is the lottery. There were the cars that have all been sold or given through a lottery and the proceeds have been used for the poor. There are things that can be sold and these are sold. Do you realize that the wealth of the Church can create these types of expectations? Pope Francis: Yes, if we make a catalog of the Church’s goods, one thinks: ‘the Church is very rich.’ But when the Concordat with Italy was signed in 1929 on the ‘Questione Romana’ (the Roman affair), the Italian government of that time offered the Church a large park in Rome. The Pope at the time, Pius XI, said: ‘no, I would only want half a square kilometer to guarantee the independence of the Church.’ This principle still applies. Yes, the real estate assets of the Church are many, but we use them to maintain the structures of the Church and to maintain many works that are done in needy countries: hospitals, schools. Yesterday, for example, I asked to send 50,000 euros to the Congo to build three schools in poor countries; education is an important thing for children. I went to the competent administration, made this request and the money has been sent. Let’s talk about Holland. Have you ever been to our country? Pope Francis: Yes, once when I was provincial superior of the Jesuits of Argentina. I was passing through of a trip I was in Wijchen, because they had the novitiate there, and I was also in Amsterdam for a day and a half, where I visited a Jesuit house. I didn’t see anything about cultural life because I didn’t have time. That’s why it might be a good idea if the homeless in Holland invited you to visit our country. What do you think, Holy Father? Pope Francis: The doors are not closed to this possibility. So, when there is a request like this, will you take it into consideration? Pope Francis: I consider it. And now that Holland has an Argentine queen (laughs), maybe. Do you perhaps have a special message for the homeless in our country? Pope Francis: I do not know well the particularities of the homeless in Holland. I would like to say that Holland is a developed country with many possibilities. I would ask the Dutch homeless to continue fighting for the three ‘t’s. At the end, Marc also asks some questions. He wants to know, among other things, if the Pope as a child already dreamed of being Pope. The Holy Father responds with a resolute ‘No’. Pope Francis: But I will make a secret. When I was little there were no businesses where things were sold. Instead of them there was the market where the butcher, the fruit seller, etc. were located. I went with my mother and my grandmother to do the shopping. He was little, he was four years old. And once they asked me: ‘What would you like to be when you grow up?’ And I said: ‘Butcher!’ For many until March 13, 2013 (the day you were elected Pope) you were a a stranger. From one moment to the next he became famous all over the world. How did you live this experience? Pope Francis: It arrived and I did not expect it. I didn’t lose my peace. And this is a grace from God. I don’t think as much about the fact that I’m famous. I tell myself: ‘Now I have an important position, but in ten years no one will know me anymore’ (laughs). You know, there are two types of fame: the fame of the ‘greats’ who have done great things, like Madame Curie (a famous Polish physicist, mathematician and chemist), and the fame of the vain. This last fame is like a soap bubble. You say ‘now I am here and I must do my best’ and will you continue this work until I am no longer fit? Pope Francis: Yes Holy Father, can you imagine a world without the poor? Pope Francis: I would like a world without poor people. We must fight for this. But I am a believer and I know that sin is always within us. And human greed always exists, the lack of solidarity, the selfishness that creates the poor. That’s why I find it a little difficult to imagine a world without poor people. If you think about children exploited by slave labor, or children exploited by sexual abuse. And another form of exploitation: murdering children to remove their organs, organ trafficking. Murdering children to remove their organs is greed. That’s why I don’t know if we will achieve this world without the poor, because sin always exists and leads us to selfishness. But we must fight, always, always. (Translated from Italian by Álvaro de Juana)
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